tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36001276.post4405888594618098595..comments2023-12-12T22:26:55.457+02:00Comments on HISTORY OF MACEDONIA, ИСТОРИЯ НА МАКЕДОНИЯ, MACEDONIA HISTORY: The Golgotha of GarvanHistorianhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07783718929733952551noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36001276.post-72315937563129728102008-08-07T03:01:00.000+03:002008-08-07T03:01:00.000+03:00Dear anonymousI've seen all the maps and books...Dear anonymous<BR/>I've seen all the maps and books that you quoted.The most maps weren't unknown to me,except the one from the Bulgarian website.I have some remarks about your quotes.At first,this pdf document:<BR/><BR/>http://wallaby.vu.edu.au/adt-VVUT/uploads/approved/adt-VVUT20060426.160820/public/03ch2.pdf<BR/><BR/>is written probably by a pro-FYROM author.I don't know if you bother yourself to read the whole text,but i found in page 71 some non-Macedonian estimates about the Macedonian population from 1899-1913,where are mentioned some 2.000.000 ethnic Macedonians!In page 74,some other more moderate sources (actually from...FYROM)estimate the number of the ethnic Macedonians in the years 1880-1898 between 700.000-1.200.000.But the most laughable claim is in page 31,where the author explains why the Turks didn't mention any ethnic Macedonians in their censuses:Attempting to wipe out any form of nationalism, the Ottomans went as far as avoiding the use of the term Macedonia. In a 1903 communiqué from the Grand Vizier's Office, it was attributed to ‘the Sultan’s command that in all addresses to and announcements in connection with the Rumeli vilayets (the vilayets of Skopje, Bitola and Solun) from henceforth the local names are to be used and under no circumstances the name Macedonia.I hope you understand after all these that the reliability of this text is highly doubted.As for the maps now,if you examine them carefully,you'll ascertain what i claimed in my first post:The Greeks were the majority in what is today Greek Macedonia.If we include FYROM and the Bulgarian region of Macedonia,off course the Bulgarians were the majority,but i speak only about the Greek region.I noticed also that this map from the Bulgarian website contains many inaccuracies.It shows that the region of Doxato in Drama was inhabited by Bulgarians,i think you know what happened in Doxato and why,when it was under Bulgarian occupation in 1913 and 1942.The same map also shows that Epirus was inhabited entirely by Albanians,absolute no one indication of Greeks in Epirus,even an ultra-nationalist Albanian wouldn't dare to claim it!<BR/>If you want to see really unbiased descriptions about the population of Greek Macedonia in 19th century,read this French book from 1854,in pages 151,153,154,155,275,281:<BR/> http://books.google.com/books?id=w6MFAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=dans+la+Turquie&lr=&ei=PfKZSKaEH6XKjgHBxqHPBw&hl=el<BR/>And this from 1831,pages 445-450:<BR/>http://books.google.com/books?id=k4EAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA445&dq=cousinery&lr=&ei=K_iZSNruBNC4iQH3ws3BBw&hl=el<BR/>As for the data of the census which i quoted,you can read also the result of the Ottoman census of Hilmi Pasha in 1904:<BR/>http://books.google.com/books?id=UpC4QJP66HUC&pg=PA89&dq=ottoman+census+hilmi+pasha&lr=&ei=qS6aSKWoNof8jgGJsdBY&hl=el&sig=ACfU3U0_TZLVihghRLlvVXUYzH0uFKb1_A<BR/><BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_History_of_Macedonia#Ottoman_census_of_Hilmi_Pasha_.281904.29<BR/><BR/>Regarding the Bulgarian/Slavic-speaking people of Greek Macedonia,you should know that:1)Their number isn't so signifficant as you imply.This is from L.Danforth's book The Macedonian conflict,ethnic nationalism in a transnational world.Off course he talks about Macedonian language but it's obvious that the Bulgarian is included under this term as well:<BR/>http://s300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/?action=view&current=macconf78.gif<BR/>2)The vast majority of them considered themselves Greeks who had lost their native language.Don't forget that during the Macedonian struggle they were the ones who were mostly tortured and killed by the Bulgarian komitadjis in order to renounce their Greeknes,not the Greek-speaking Macedonians.Don't you wonder why,since you believe that it was just a stupid religious dispute between patriarchists and exarchists?The language that someone speaks isn't always a criterion about his ethnicity.If you go to Ireland and talk to the people in Irish,no more than 15-20% are able to understand you,the rest speaks only English.But don't make the mistake and tell to them that they are English,you'll regret it!The same goes for the Scotts.<BR/>And please let these childish arguments about the Bulgarian victories that are more than the Greek ones.Every nation on earth has in his history victories and defeats and i'm sure you know very well what are your victories and what your defeats. <BR/><BR/> Best rergardsΣκαιόςhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17691479317916208952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36001276.post-8360455297771901232008-06-24T02:21:00.000+03:002008-06-24T02:21:00.000+03:00Ok Kostas... From everything i read and everythi...Ok Kostas...<BR/> From everything i read and everything i saw i can see the difference between right and wrong. Unlike our friend that didn't wrote his name, you didn't spread propaganda about uniting Greece with FYROM. I'm very suprised in the good way for your supportive words about our desoriented bulgarians in all of Macedonia. Serbia created a monster from this people and they suffer again and again from 1878 till present days. Serbs always wanted to stick a knife to our back from ancient times. All our historians wrote about that. But the Serbs were always weak and they hate that. They have grown only once in Stefan Dushan rule but he like all we know is half Bulgarian:) Isn't that ironic...<BR/>With the Romanians is not so bad because they have emerge like state very late and before that they were simple - tribes in the Bulgarian empire. With Greece my friend things are complcated from over 1500 years because they were part from our archenemy - The eastern roman empire. Our churches fight for dominance among the people untill XX century! This propaganda make tousands of bulgarians - greeks! Not the batles. Sory to say that but our army beat yours almost every time they fought...<BR/>I read many articles about Greek propaganda among bulgarian viliges and all the kilings in "peacefull" times from foreign sources - not Bulgarian. Yes there are Bulgarian articles that describes some unreal things but those that are closer to the independet sources are aproxymately 90 % <BR/> So...<BR/> I'm trying to say that the statistics that you post in your comment are wrong or greek ( is the same). Try to find independent sources. See also this links:<BR/><BR/>http://wallaby.vu.edu.au/adt-VVUT/uploads/approved/adt-VVUT20060426.160820/public/03ch2.pdf<BR/><BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_San_Stefano<BR/><BR/>http://images.google.bg/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Balkans-ethnic_(1861).jpg&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Balkans-ethnic_(1861).jpg&h=5072&w=6280&sz=3953&hl=bg&start=2&um=1&tbnid=Gi5ameLexwlkYM:&tbnh=121&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dold%2Bethnic%2Bmap%2Bof%2Bbulgarians%2Bin%2Bthe%2Bbalkans%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dbg%26sa%3DX<BR/><BR/>http://www.history-of-macedonia.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/VolkerkartevonMittel-undSudosteuropa.jpg<BR/><BR/>http://www.history-of-macedonia.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/VolkerkartevonMittel-undSudosteuropa.jpg<BR/><BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:550px-Greece_linguistic_minoritiesb_copy.jpg<BR/><BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Distribution_of_Races_on_the_Balkans_in_1922_Hammond.png<BR/><BR/><BR/>This are maps of populations that called themselves Bulgarians and etc.<BR/>Like you see ( you can search in google by yourself) the population in almost all macedonia consideres itself Bulgarian. Ofcourse there are turks, greeks and etc. But 70 % are Bulgarians. Way down to Solun...<BR/>The teritory below Odrin is yours for shure. All the maps show that. But the lands were given to the Turks.<BR/>I was last week in Greece and in all the villiges that i pass and Solun, i talk most of the time in Bulgarian. <BR/><BR/>Why?!<BR/><BR/>Try to come to Bulgaria and talk in Greece with someone untill you reach Pernik for example. Nobody will understand you.<BR/>The same experiance i had with turs in Odrin! <BR/><BR/>That my friend is because we have THE LARGEST population in these areas and the bigest part still live there but many years passed and they forgot their roots. We were in comunism regime and our stuped rullers leave all our natives in foreign governments and didn't care obout them.<BR/>It's imposible for thousands of people to talk Bulgarian and to have never been in Bulgaria because of the comunism borders.How did they learn the language? Yes they call themselvs Greecs but theare not.<BR/><BR/>I wrote all of this to make you see my point of view and if you think i'm wrong - to seek the truth in independent sources.<BR/><BR/>These so called Bulgarian speaking Greeks fought against Bulgaria because they were patriarhist ( brainwashed with religious instruments of propaganda). I read the authentick dokuments of our messengers about the agressive Greek and Serb propaganda and all the killings folowing them.<BR/> So that's how Greece ant Serbia part by part take our lands.<BR/> Sory but that is the hard reality. It's bad for us - not for you...<BR/> We live in different world now. It's impossible to make ilusions about returning the conchusnes of our brothers and sister in Serbia, Greece and Romania and unite in our real lands that we inhabit more than 1400years. This kind of thinking is dangerous and has no place in the modern world.<BR/><BR/>I feel pity about Makedonia and this Macedonism kind of thinking that it's all based on lies.<BR/><BR/>We will see what will hapen....<BR/><BR/>Best Regards <BR/> SimeonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36001276.post-82606727499999429832008-06-15T19:04:00.000+03:002008-06-15T19:04:00.000+03:00My friend Symeon,You wrote that Egean Macedonia an...My friend Symeon,<BR/>You wrote that Egean Macedonia and Southern Thrace was inhabited mainly by Bulgarians before 1913 but this is a big mistake.According to all the Ottoman censuses before 1913,the Population of today's Greek Macedonia was consisted of 43% Greeks,40% Turks,12% Bulgarians and 5% Jews.<BR/>I am a Greek from Serres region.My homeland is a village called Emmanouil Papas.It took his name from the homonymous leader of the Greek revolution in Macedonia in 1821 who was born here in 1773.You can understand that we were in our region Greeks and Greek-speaking always and not brainwashed Bulgarians.There were in Greek Macedonia at that time patriarchist people with Greek consciousness who spoke only Bulgarian,but they consider themselves Greek and during the Macedonian struggle they fought along the Greek bands against the Bulgarian komitadji.In a census of 1920,the Greek-speaking Greeks in Macedonia were 480.000,the Bulgarian-speaking with Greek consciousness were 75.000 and the Bulgarians were 97.000.Also in some Bulgarian regions like Eastern Rumelia were living many Greeks.After the Neilly treaty and other Greco-Bulgarian billateral treaties the issue of the minorities between the 2 countries was adjusted with the population exchange and today there is no such problem.Maybe there are some 20.000-30.000 people in Florina ,Kastoria and Edessa regions who are bilinguals and speak actually a Bulgarian dialect which was baptized as Macedonian and we all know by whom and why but the vast majority of them has Greek consciousness and their ancestors fought for Greece.A thiny percentage of them don't feel Greek,but they call them unfortunately for me and for you not Bulgarians,as i would prefer,but Macedonians.The Rainbow party,the political party of the alleged ethnic Macedonians in Greece took in the last elections for the EU parlament around 4.000 votes and you can understand by this number how many they are.<BR/>You wrote also that: Your ancestors slaughtered and brainwashed macedonian Bulgarians after the liberation of Bulgaria.<BR/>The history of the Balkans,is full of such attrocities,my friend and i don't think that we have something to gain when we remind each other what happened in the past.Your ancestors did exactly the same against the Greeks of Macedonia.They burnt the city of Serres in The 2nd Balkan war in 1913,some years later in WWI and during the Bulgarian ocuppation of Eastern Macedonia,1916-1918 they took as hostages in Bulgaria thousands of Greek civilians and most of them never came back,they died in Bulgarian soil.From my village were taken 120 and returned back only 30.Later,in WW2,we had again Bulgarian ocuppation in Eastern Macedonia,again persecutions,oppression,executions,e.t.c.I teel you only this,to understand how was the Bulgarian ocuppation.The river of Strymonas(i think it's Struma in Bulgarian)was the border between the German occuppied zone and the Bulgarian occupied one.Many of the inhabitants of the Bulgarian zone fled to the German zone,in order to avoid the Bulgarian oppresion.<BR/>So,you see,Symeon that everyone has bad memories,but as i said before it's better for all to forget them.I believe that the Greco-Bulgarian relations today are a perfect example of good neighbourhood and friendship between two countries that had many differences in the past,but now they are walking alongside and with mutual respect to the future and the progress.<BR/> Best regard<BR/> KostasΣκαιόςhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17691479317916208952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36001276.post-8920608167353931002008-06-15T19:02:00.000+03:002008-06-15T19:02:00.000+03:00My friend Symeon,You wrote that Egean Macedonia an...My friend Symeon,<BR/>You wrote that Egean Macedonia and Southern Thrace was inhabited mainly by Bulgarians before 1913 but this is a big mistake.According to all the Ottoman censuses before 1913,the Population of today's Greek Macedonia was consisted of 43% Greeks,40% Turks,12% Bulgarians and 5% Jews.<BR/>I am a Greek from Serres region.My homeland is a village called Emmanouil Papas.It took his name from the homonymous leader of the Greek revolution in Macedonia in 1821 who was born here in 1773.You can understand that we were in our region Greeks and Greek-speaking always and not brainwashed Bulgarians.There were in Greek Macedonia at that time patriarchist people with Greek consciousness who spoke only Bulgarian,but they consider themselves Greek and during the Macedonian struggle they fought along the Greek bands against the Bulgarian komitadji.In a census of 1920,the Greek-speaking Greeks in Macedonia were 480.000,the Bulgarian-speaking with Greek consciousness were 75.000 and the Bulgarians were 97.000.Also in some Bulgarian regions like Eastern Rumelia were living many Greeks.After the Neilly treaty and other Greco-Bulgarian billateral treaties the issue of the minorities between the 2 countries was adjusted with the population exchange and today there is no such problem.Maybe there are some 20.000-30.000 people in Florina ,Kastoria and Edessa regions who are bilinguals and speak actually a Bulgarian dialect which was baptized as Macedonian and we all know by whom and why but the vast majority of them has Greek consciousness and their ancestors fought for Greece.A thiny percentage of them don't feel Greek,but they call them unfortunately for me and for you not Bulgarians,as i would prefer,but Macedonians.The Rainbow party,the political party of the alleged ethnic Macedonians in Greece took in the last elections for the EU parlament around 4.000 votes and you can understand by this number how many they are.<BR/>You wrote also that: Your ancestors slaughtered and brainwashed macedonian Bulgarians after the liberation of Bulgaria.<BR/>The history of the Balkans,is full of such attrocities,my friend and i don't think that we have something to gain when we remind each other what happened in the past.Your ancestors did exactly the same against the Greeks of Macedonia.They burnt the city of Serres in The 2nd Balkan war in 1913,some years later in WWI and during the Bulgarian ocuppation of Eastern Macedonia,1916-1918 they took as hostages in Bulgaria thousands of Greek civilians and most of them never came back,they died in Bulgarian soil.From my village were taken 120 and returned back only 30.Later,in WW2,we had again Bulgarian ocuppation in Eastern Macedonia,again persecutions,oppression,executions,e.t.c.I teel you only this,to understand how was the Bulgarian ocuppation.The river of Strymonas(i think it's Struma in Bulgarian)was the border between the German occuppied zone and the Bulgarian occupied one.Many of the inhabitants of the Bulgarian zone fled to the German zone,in order to avoid the Bulgarian oppresion.<BR/>So,you see,Symeon that everyone has bad memories,but as i said before it's better for all to forget them.I believe that the Greco-Bulgarian relations today are a perfect example of good neighbourhood and friendship between two countries that had many differences in the past,but now they are walking alongside and with mutual respect to the future and the progress.<BR/> Best regard<BR/> KostasΣκαιόςhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17691479317916208952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36001276.post-80686529461584355082008-06-12T22:09:00.000+03:002008-06-12T22:09:00.000+03:00Hah.. First i want to say that i'm Bulgarian! Th...Hah..<BR/> First i want to say that i'm Bulgarian!<BR/> That's funny. Greece and FYROM united! My friend. Read some history! <BR/><BR/>Present Macedonians are pure Bulgarians.<BR/><BR/> This sentence is so writen so many times in the forums and so many discusions were held and i'm tyred to repeat the truth about 1000 times!<BR/><BR/>Tell me. How can you unite your culture with different lgarian culture. What gives you the right to think of uniting with Macedonia!? You are Greek! Your ancestors slaughtered and brainwashed macedonian Bulgarians after the liberation of Bulgaria. <BR/><BR/>I'm telling you again - read history! <BR/><BR/>Because of the threaty of Neuilly that theared appart Bulgaria and put pure bulgarian cittizens in foreign govvernment, triggered all the Balkan wars!<BR/> North Dobrudga was etnick Bulgarian...<BR/> Western lands ( Pirot, Nish, Tsaribrod) were ethnick Bulgarian...<BR/> MACEDONIA was and still is ethnick Bulgarian...<BR/> Egeyan Macedonia and southern Thrace were etnick Bulgarian land!<BR/> All of our neighbours succeedet with killings and represions to make Bulgarians - Greeks, Serbs, Romanians...<BR/> I can say also that our western lands in Serbia are ours and we can take them any time we want. We can do it right now! Because the threaty of Kraiova is illegal. It's illegal becouse our wetsern lands were given to the kngdom of Serbs, Croatians and Slovens. This kingdom that represents one side from the contract no longer exists. In matter of fact - This union doesn't exists from birth of Yugoslavia! Serbia rulles our lands illegal for several dekades!<BR/><BR/>You say "Brothers".<BR/>Macedonians are not your brothers like Bulgarians are not your Brothers. The only ones that can unite are Bulgaria and FYROM ( Macedonian Bulgaria). <BR/>OUR BROTHERS from Macedonia need only little more time to remove 50 yera of Serb propaganda and accept the fact that they are the core and the most important part from once the strongest and biggest nation of balkan peninsula - Bulgaria.<BR/>Don't get me wrong - I have respect for Greece and Greeks played the most immportant role in world history. But please - stop to make atempts to make Bulgarians - Greeks, to continue to try to destroy our national ideals. We - the Bulgarians - in all our history in the period of the Balkan wars and the two WW, tryed to unite all our lands and unite in our ethnick borders. We didn't wanted expansion - it's simple - we wanted to live free and united. That's it.<BR/>It's time for you - our neibhors<BR/>to help us at last, to help macedonias to revive their national conscience and there will be peace in our region.<BR/> <BR/> By the way.<BR/> What is your birth city?:)<BR/> If its close to Solun - maybe you to are brainwashed Bulgarian. Because in the beginink of XX century 70 % of Northen Greece was etnic Bulgarian teritory..............Simeon 1400https://www.blogger.com/profile/17796374112621517827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36001276.post-25385953707949136622008-06-07T17:35:00.000+03:002008-06-07T17:35:00.000+03:00Message to our Northern Neighbors and Brothers. De...Message to our Northern Neighbors and Brothers. <BR/><BR/>Dear Brothers,<BR/><BR/>I am writing this letter as a Greek Citizen. I am writing this message as a Citizen of mother earth. I am writing this letter as your neighbor who knows that we have more things to connect us. Unfortunately we let the few things that divide us to rule.<BR/>This message is only for those who fight for their beliefs. Not for those who serve the global Tyranny. We have plenty of those here in Greece, you have also plenty of those. These are the people capable to do anything for a cheap price. These are our common enemies who unfortunately reign and destroy our relation.<BR/>You are the only neighbors we can strongly consider as true friends. Believe me I know you feel the same about us. If we eliminate the tyrants who create hostility among us, then we will both survive in prosperity. If we allow them to continue poison our souls, then we will both fail. <BR/>For us it is an honor that you fight for the name of Macedonia. This name lies also in our souls.<BR/>If you want this name due to the magnificence of Alexander the great, the philosophy of his cause, his endless fight for mother Earth, you are more than welcome to use it.<BR/>If you believe in Aristotle’s education, then we share the same cause.<BR/>On the other hand, if you think that Macedonia could be a name that will bring money or force, then it is better not to read any further.<BR/>Here in Greece, we also have people who are not aware who they really are. They hide behind the ancient greatness in order to hide their miserable present existence.<BR/>Believe me, we do NOT need them.<BR/>Let us join our fight, exchange opinions and thoughts, let us discuss as family. I am sure that knowledge is the key for both. I am sure if we low down the flags and see the faces, solution will come immediately. <BR/>And the solution is one: Alexander fought to unite the ancestors who lived where we live now. Alexander fought for a great cause. Not for violence, not for blood but to spread a great civilization. Civilization for Democracy and Human rights. Civilization to eliminate the darkness that embraced human kind at that time. <BR/>I think it is time for us to follow his example. It is so simple. Imagine if we just cancel the borders that divide us. Mental and geographical borders. We have the unique chance to do it. It is our generation, our cause, our future. And there is no other way.<BR/>Let’s start today. Let’s demand together what is rightfully ours. One future, One cause, ONE COUNTRY. The Olympian way.<BR/>We are sure we can live together, aren’t you? <BR/><BR/>Our Deepest love and respect,<BR/>www.Olympia.grAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36001276.post-29888626703744456602008-03-10T10:09:00.000+02:002008-03-10T10:09:00.000+02:00Nice site! Greetings from Mexico! :)Nice site! Greetings from Mexico! :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com